I think you make a very good point that I have never thought about within evangelicalism, and it's something I have likely fallen into a time or two.
It's kind of a spirit of the age, to be "authentic" and "real" you have to be willing to confess sin with people that you dont know. There is definitely a time and a place for vulnerability, but as you said, it's not with people you dont even know. Confession of sin to another should mean they then can hold you accountable to pursue holiness.
I saw his OP on FB and it was very long and I skimmed it because it felt a bit embarrassing to me to read it. You can say what he wanted to say, which is that God esteem repentant sinners and their sin doesn't necessarily preclude them from a godly marriage, without using his wife as the "look at us!" You are right, it is immodest.
Then again, evangelicals of that nature dont teach a full theology of modesty. They stop at "women shouldn't wear leggings." And thats the problem.
so glad you spoke about this, I knew that post felt off, he wanted to post it, get hate and shame, revere himself as brave for revealing intimate details about his wife that nobody asked for, falsely labeling himself as a martyr
Ronald Knox's Enthusiasm traces the history of Christian sects promoting immediate personal experience of the divine, from the early church to the holy rollers, including the evangelical movement, and the feature you describe - a certain blindness to the possibility of giving scandal - is a recurring theme of these groups. The one thing I would say is that there is some benefit in organised personal testimony at the level of discourse, because the Church's opponents are good at deploying personal truth against the dryness of doctrine so you do need some people saying "I hear you, I've been there, here's why it didn't work for me" e.g Eve Tushnet. But going on retreat and having a guy talking about self-abuse sounds like something out of Knives Out. People should be able to decide their level of involvement.
Christians are commanded to tell others about what God has done so that God might have glory. Confessing sins so that God gets glory for how much He's saved you fits right in line with that. I get that it might make you uncomfortable but you aren't the point, God is.
Your comment didn't address my post. You were arguing that people should talk about what God has done in their lives. I never contradicted that, so I don't even know what I'm supposed to argue.
Ah I see. I was assuming that you wrote this entire piece because you were made uncomfortable by the confessional culture in many Christian circles. That's fair that I don't know your motives. However, I maintain my point otherwise.
Didn't you start your post with a long anecdote about how some guy shouldn't have been confessing his sexual sin in a group of Christian men? And then you went on to talk about how modesty was the underlying virtue behind this restraint you recommended? How do you reconcile your own desire for modesty in others with the command Christians are given to share widely what God has done in their lives?
The admission was bad enough on their part but what was arguably worse was the way that they accused anyone who suggested it was bad to do so was not being a good Christian. His wife went on a podcast and went so far as to say they were being persecuted like Christ.
I don’t want to question their sincerity, since I suppose it’s impossible to know one way or the other, but I think their lack of discernment was really awful to see. I pray that God transforms their hearts in the wake of this experience.
One big difference, that makes this controversial is that he is revealing his wife’s former sins, not his own.
The fallen woman now redeemed is something I encounter constantly in the Bible Belt, women I barely know telling me they were alcoholics and slept with men like a cheap prostitute until their husband shared Jesus with them and his testimony and matrimony saved them like Mary Magdalen, is a stereo type in the region, but it is her testimony not his, so I think this is why it is so appalling even to evangelicals.
The cultural norm of needing this type of testimony for status has actually lead many of my evangelical friends into sin they might have avoided if they didn’t feel they needed a cool fall into sin arc. Some of them never recovered from that arc.
I 100%! Get this as a Catholic who’s late wife was an Evangelical Protestant from the Victory Outreach variety I saw this all the time. It’s almost like your testimony is what saves you and they even ask “What’s your testimony?” As if not having one means you’re not saved. This was hard on her because her mother was a former drug-dealer turned churchgoer before my late wife was born. So she grew up in church and never strayed so she was always questioning her salvation because she didn’t have a testimony to give and I had to help her see that thinking was false. It was a lot of deprogramming. This type of Evangelicalism borderlines on cult practices in my opinion and it breeds a tour of gossip-culture in the church. Maybe this is why the Catholic concept of confession is good. We naturally want to purge ourselves of our sins and having a private place for someone to hear it and let it go is what people need.
I don’t believe that modesty figures in. If it were the case then I would expect to see far more immodest displays of flesh during the church services and that’s not happening , at least not yet
Very good analysis. I think one of the reasons that this feels so violating is that in in-person settings (perhaps online as well) the person is also trying to force intimacy. “We’re close now, I told you my deepest secrets. I now have a (unearned) claim on your friendship and loyalty.”
Worse yet, such narcissistic use of confession is used as a lever to pry other such unchivalrous confessions from the other men, demeaning decorum, lowering the status of all the men together (see—Evangelicals believe in egalitarianism!). This process probably guarantees the individual men do not form to combat these sins since the payoff is in being beset by such sins and publicly confessing them. Even Paul mention sins that should not be mentioned. This type of sin should be felt in private with an Elder over your personal formation into the image of Christ. Oh wait! Evangelicalism doesn’t have those!!!
There was a lot of pressure when I was a young teenager to do this,and carrying into my 20s I thought oversharing was being transparent and truthful. I used to be mad when someone shared a personal struggle to a group and then someone in the group gossiped about it and the whole church found out. The reality is, it's harmful, especially to the youth when you teach them that oversharing somehow counts as a confession. Protestant churches in general lack private places to confess sin, and that is the real shame in all this.
Please make this a series, Dean!
Your perspective really helped me decode why this whole Sheatz situation was so revolting.
We'll see what time allows.
I think you make a very good point that I have never thought about within evangelicalism, and it's something I have likely fallen into a time or two.
It's kind of a spirit of the age, to be "authentic" and "real" you have to be willing to confess sin with people that you dont know. There is definitely a time and a place for vulnerability, but as you said, it's not with people you dont even know. Confession of sin to another should mean they then can hold you accountable to pursue holiness.
I saw his OP on FB and it was very long and I skimmed it because it felt a bit embarrassing to me to read it. You can say what he wanted to say, which is that God esteem repentant sinners and their sin doesn't necessarily preclude them from a godly marriage, without using his wife as the "look at us!" You are right, it is immodest.
Then again, evangelicals of that nature dont teach a full theology of modesty. They stop at "women shouldn't wear leggings." And thats the problem.
Thank you, Ashley.
so glad you spoke about this, I knew that post felt off, he wanted to post it, get hate and shame, revere himself as brave for revealing intimate details about his wife that nobody asked for, falsely labeling himself as a martyr
I can't know if that was his motive, but that seems to have been the outcome.
Ronald Knox's Enthusiasm traces the history of Christian sects promoting immediate personal experience of the divine, from the early church to the holy rollers, including the evangelical movement, and the feature you describe - a certain blindness to the possibility of giving scandal - is a recurring theme of these groups. The one thing I would say is that there is some benefit in organised personal testimony at the level of discourse, because the Church's opponents are good at deploying personal truth against the dryness of doctrine so you do need some people saying "I hear you, I've been there, here's why it didn't work for me" e.g Eve Tushnet. But going on retreat and having a guy talking about self-abuse sounds like something out of Knives Out. People should be able to decide their level of involvement.
Christians are commanded to tell others about what God has done so that God might have glory. Confessing sins so that God gets glory for how much He's saved you fits right in line with that. I get that it might make you uncomfortable but you aren't the point, God is.
Wrong.
Usually when trying to debate a point, people provide an argument.
Your comment didn't address my post. You were arguing that people should talk about what God has done in their lives. I never contradicted that, so I don't even know what I'm supposed to argue.
So you don't think what I said was wrong?
You are wrong that my being comfortable or uncomfortable has anything to do with it.
Ah I see. I was assuming that you wrote this entire piece because you were made uncomfortable by the confessional culture in many Christian circles. That's fair that I don't know your motives. However, I maintain my point otherwise.
Didn't you start your post with a long anecdote about how some guy shouldn't have been confessing his sexual sin in a group of Christian men? And then you went on to talk about how modesty was the underlying virtue behind this restraint you recommended? How do you reconcile your own desire for modesty in others with the command Christians are given to share widely what God has done in their lives?
The admission was bad enough on their part but what was arguably worse was the way that they accused anyone who suggested it was bad to do so was not being a good Christian. His wife went on a podcast and went so far as to say they were being persecuted like Christ.
I don’t want to question their sincerity, since I suppose it’s impossible to know one way or the other, but I think their lack of discernment was really awful to see. I pray that God transforms their hearts in the wake of this experience.
Agreed.
One big difference, that makes this controversial is that he is revealing his wife’s former sins, not his own.
The fallen woman now redeemed is something I encounter constantly in the Bible Belt, women I barely know telling me they were alcoholics and slept with men like a cheap prostitute until their husband shared Jesus with them and his testimony and matrimony saved them like Mary Magdalen, is a stereo type in the region, but it is her testimony not his, so I think this is why it is so appalling even to evangelicals.
The cultural norm of needing this type of testimony for status has actually lead many of my evangelical friends into sin they might have avoided if they didn’t feel they needed a cool fall into sin arc. Some of them never recovered from that arc.
I 100%! Get this as a Catholic who’s late wife was an Evangelical Protestant from the Victory Outreach variety I saw this all the time. It’s almost like your testimony is what saves you and they even ask “What’s your testimony?” As if not having one means you’re not saved. This was hard on her because her mother was a former drug-dealer turned churchgoer before my late wife was born. So she grew up in church and never strayed so she was always questioning her salvation because she didn’t have a testimony to give and I had to help her see that thinking was false. It was a lot of deprogramming. This type of Evangelicalism borderlines on cult practices in my opinion and it breeds a tour of gossip-culture in the church. Maybe this is why the Catholic concept of confession is good. We naturally want to purge ourselves of our sins and having a private place for someone to hear it and let it go is what people need.
Evangelicalism is a scourge, a poison.
I don’t believe that modesty figures in. If it were the case then I would expect to see far more immodest displays of flesh during the church services and that’s not happening , at least not yet
That doesn’t follow.
"I did a lot of foolish things."
Just say that and we all get the picture. Because we've all been there.
Very good analysis. I think one of the reasons that this feels so violating is that in in-person settings (perhaps online as well) the person is also trying to force intimacy. “We’re close now, I told you my deepest secrets. I now have a (unearned) claim on your friendship and loyalty.”
Worse yet, such narcissistic use of confession is used as a lever to pry other such unchivalrous confessions from the other men, demeaning decorum, lowering the status of all the men together (see—Evangelicals believe in egalitarianism!). This process probably guarantees the individual men do not form to combat these sins since the payoff is in being beset by such sins and publicly confessing them. Even Paul mention sins that should not be mentioned. This type of sin should be felt in private with an Elder over your personal formation into the image of Christ. Oh wait! Evangelicalism doesn’t have those!!!
There was a lot of pressure when I was a young teenager to do this,and carrying into my 20s I thought oversharing was being transparent and truthful. I used to be mad when someone shared a personal struggle to a group and then someone in the group gossiped about it and the whole church found out. The reality is, it's harmful, especially to the youth when you teach them that oversharing somehow counts as a confession. Protestant churches in general lack private places to confess sin, and that is the real shame in all this.